A Little Bit Richer

This series is brought to you by L&G, helping you build a future that's a little bit richer.

Iona Bain: Hello and welcome to A Little Bit Richer, with me, Iona Bain, brought to you by Legal & General. In today's episode, we're talking about something that affects millions of people, but often doesn't get discussed enough in the context of money, and that's neurodiversity. Around one in five people in the UK are neurodivergent, which means their brains work a little differently from what's considered typical. Neurodiversity is a term that covers ADHD, autism, dyslexia, and dyscalculia.

And for many, it shapes how we think, feel, and behave when it comes to finances. Research shows neurodivergent people are more likely to face financial anxiety and often lack confidence when it comes to managing their money. Joining me today is the brilliant Krystle McGilvrey. She's an accountant, campaigner, and speaker who was diagnosed with dyslexia in her thirties and also lives with ADHD. Krystle has a master's in behavioural and economic science and is an expert in decision- making and behavioural finance. So she is the perfect person for us to chat to today. Welcome, Krystle.

Krystle McGilvrey: Hi.

Ion Bain: Can you explain more about neurodiversity and how this might affect how someone manages their money?

Krystle McGilvrey: Yeah, for sure. So neurodiversity basically is a difference in our brain. Neurodivergents have a different maybe structure in the brain or the way their brain reacts or operates is slightly different. If you are neurodivergent, you are likely to be different in how you think, feel, and act. And if you think about money and the role it plays in our lives, it then has a double rolling effect on that.

Iona Bain: So it's a very profound impact on pretty much every aspect of how you interact with your finances?

Krystle McGilvrey: 100%. Yeah. We're talking about managing and budgeting, et cetera. And if you don't have systems in place to help you build wealth and manage your money on a day to day, it can be really quite hard.

Iona Bain: What are some of the typical money related challenges that neurodiverse people face and how might these differ between ADHD, autism, dyslexia and dyscalculia?

Krystle McGilvrey: Top line, we're talking about things such as emotional dysregulation or executive functioning. This is where it impacts us. For example, executive functioning. We're talking about planning and organizing our finances, and what you might see as someone struggling with budgeting and staying within the parameters that they've set for their finances and maybe they impulse spend instead. And that's when we go back to things such as emotional dysregulation.

When you are maybe sad or even really happy, you want to reward yourself and that spike you get really excited and then you realize you've spent your savings for your home. Or if we think about something like autism, maybe shutdowns or meltdowns means you avoid your finances completely and then that can cause a ripple effect.

Iona Bain: And also when it comes to something like dyslexia or dyscalculia, can that also be problematic in terms of your finances?

Krystle McGilvrey: Yeah, for sure. If we think about dyscalculia, that's all about numbers. Although I like to talk about finances not being a mathematical thing as such, right? It's more about the managing, the planning, thinking about the future, investing for later life, but if you've got a fear or you avoid numbers, that really makes it hard for you to start thinking about what you're doing with your money for later in life or even today. And then dyslexia, writing or doing any kind of financial management when it comes to your money, dyslexia shows up.

Iona Bain: And you've been very open about your diagnosis of ADHD and dyslexia. How have those things specifically affected your ability to manage money?

Krystle McGilvrey: So I'm an accountant, right? Which some people might be surprised by.

Iona Bain: 100%. Which is why I laugh.

Krystle McGilvrey: I'm a chartered accountant, I've got a bachelor's in financial mathematics. I'm very number heavy. But I think what we need to understand here is neurodivergence is on a spectrum, and the way it's diagnosed is there's a range of traits. And when you're assessed, it's about you being diagnosed based on you meeting a criteria of having a certain number of traits in a certain area. So with me being dyslexic for example, it doesn't necessarily mean I'm going to struggle with numbers. My dyslexia actually isn't around auditory, so I can still really thrive when it comes to numbers and I don't avoid them.

But where I do struggle and I've had to build systems, which is the managing and planning. For example, when I worked in an organization, I had the structure. I have weekly deadlines, monthly deadlines, so I was really okay functioning in that environment. As soon as I've gone and worked for myself now, straight away I was like, how do I do this?

Iona Bain: I mean, when you're self- employed, that is hard at the best of times.

Krystle McGilvrey: Exactly.

Iona Bain: But it must have been particularly tricky for you.

Krystle McGilvrey: It was, and I hadn't been diagnosed then, but I did notice straight away that I was really messy in my organisation and it took a while for me to realize I need structure. So that's one thing I help people with is building that routine, that system, because that's going to be your foundation for you to then launch pad and do the other things you need to do.

Iona Bain: What you're saying really resonates with me because I was diagnosed with dyscalculia when I was at school, and one thing that frustrates me now is if I tell people what I do and if I then talk about my struggles with numbers and maths, they then say, " Well, how can you then be good with money?" Do you get this sometimes where people will perhaps write off those who have neurodivergence as maybe not being able to get on top of their finances? Is that something that you find frustrating?

Krystle McGilvrey: Yeah, 100%. Whether it's people in general or the individual themselves, them knowing that they are neurodivergent and the struggles they've had in the past can be really quite hard to manage. And that demotivate you to even start walking the path to addressing where you are different.

Iona Bain: Because you've already started labelling yourself in that way.

Krystle McGilvrey: Exactly. When it comes to neurodivergence, it's not that there's a problem with your brain, it's actually the systems and products and services that exist in our society today have not been tailored for you. And instead what you need to do is identify, okay, how does my brain work? What do I find really easy? And then what systems can I put in place to help me win when it comes to finance?

Iona Bain: Many people who have neurodivergence talk about the frustration of having that intention to manage their money better, but not being able to follow through. So what's behind that?

Krystle McGilvrey: The word lazy comes up a lot, or people label people as lazy. And so when it comes to your finances, you might have all the best interest in the world to say, right, I'm going to do this and feel quite motivated about it. When it comes to our brain and things such as dopamine and distraction and struggling to control yourself, that's down to your brain in the way it's wired. So it's not that you're lazy and you just give up.

There's actually something going on in your mind, and that's where it's really important to put systems in place and tools that can help you get things done.

Iona Bain: And how do we become kinder to ourselves if we are neurodivergent and we have had those struggles with money? I talk about financial empathy a lot. So that's the number one thing.

Krystle McGilvrey: The number one thing.

Iona Bain: Before you even get into strategies is be kind to yourself.

Krystle McGilvrey: I've got a coaching programme and I take people through, and before we even start talking numbers, it's all about you building up the confidence within yourself and your belief in your ability to get there. Because if you're coming in and you've lost some money or you're not where your friends are, you just don't feel good. So you're not going to be in the right space to be like, " Okay, yeah, let's put a budget in place.

Yep, let's start saving." You're going to have this negative thought cycle, and instead it's realizing there's nothing wrong with your brain, it's just we haven't quite discovered what works for you. And going through that journey, then you're able and open to reframe your view of you and money. And then it becomes really exciting, because it's almost like your problem solving and trying to figure out, okay, this works for me and I can make it fun here.

Iona Bain: It's about trying to get those aha moments where suddenly people will understand how to view their neurodivergence in a new light almost and see it as an opportunity and something that they can work with.

Krystle McGilvrey: It's a reframe. That's what it is. And then it allows you to go down this different path when it comes to your finances and see that actually, oh, maybe I could buy a home one day, or maybe I could build up an emergency fund, or maybe I could start investing. That becomes accessible to you.

Iona Bain: That's lovely. Kind of opening up those possibilities.

Krystle McGilvrey: Precisely.

Iona Bain: So let's talk about some practical ways that neurodiverse people can manage their spending day to day, because that must be a big challenge, making sure that you can deal with impulse spending, emotional purchases, forgetfulness, those types of day- to- day challenges. What do you recommend in terms of practical strategies?

Krystle McGilvrey: One thing that I know people love are certain banking apps that alerts you when you've spent some money. I think it's a really great reminder, because it's so easy for us to forget about money. Money is now a card. It's a bit of plastic in your hand. And when we think about the science and what's happening there when you spend with cash compared to spending with a card, the part of our brain that's associated with pain lights up more so when we spend with money. It's really quite fascinating.

Iona Bain: I didn't know that. Because intuitively I do feel more pained when I have to hand over a tenner compared to when I just tap my card.

Krystle McGilvrey: Yeah, because it's a disassociation, right? You don't have to think about what's actually going on there. But yeah, a banking app that pings when money has gone out is such a great reminder to think about my budget or what am I doing here. Things such as having different pots or different bank accounts even. So what I like to encourage is you have a bank account or a pot that is purely for your bills.

Iona Bain: So a pot, just explain how that works?

Krystle McGilvrey: For example, Monzo, I think Styling as well. You can set up your bank account and separate your money into different sections within the one bank account, which is really quite cool. But that allows you to then separate your income, for example, into those pots and then allocate bills to those different areas.

And what that means is you don't have to worry about spending and not being able to pay a bill and then having to borrow in maybe unsavoury circumstances to be able to cover your day- to- day. And then you've got this other pot, which is maybe for the fun stuff and you can be free and allow your Impulsive desires to have fun.

Iona Bain: Yes. So it's not about removing all the fun, it's just about putting the boundaries in place.

Krystle McGilvrey: Yes.

Iona Bain: And also when it comes to paying bills, can organizing those via a direct debit help as well?

Krystle McGilvrey: Yeah, 100%. I shout about automation. So where you can set up direct debits, that works wonders. And even if it's not a bill and it's investing or saving, stand and order that, set it up where the money just comes out of your account and you're not thinking about it.

Iona Bain: One of the things that's really helped me as someone who doesn't intuitively connect with numbers is using visual tools.

Krystle McGilvrey: Yes.

Iona Bain: So I love seeing my spending in a pie chart or a bar chart because then I can see, rather than have to calculate how much money I have left per month.

Krystle McGilvrey: I love that. If it works for you and it helps you focus on the right thing, then run with it.

Iona Bain: Absolutely.

Krystle McGilvrey: As long as we're getting to the end goal, right?

Iona Bain: Totally. And what would your advice be for anyone who may be feeling shame and embarrassment, around not feeling like they are adulting and getting their act together when it comes to money? How can we shift that mindset?

Krystle McGilvrey: It's a really good question. It's initially acknowledging and understanding that your brain works differently and there's nothing wrong with that. And actually what hasn't adjusted are the financial products and services that exist to align with how your brain works. It just requires an extra step for you to find solutions that work well for you.

And there are many people who have successfully done that and gone from really difficult financial situations and struggling in debt and not having oversight of their finances and have gone through that. And it might involve an initial brave step of rolling up your sleeves and being like, okay, let's go for it. But just encouragement that there is a way and you can go down that path.

Iona Bain: If spending becomes an issue because of your neurodivergence. Do you recommend certain strategies to put in place to manage debts that might happen as a result of that?

Krystle McGilvrey: First of all, I'd say stop, pause, breathe, and know that you can get through. And I think second, it's just take an audit, note down, okay, this is what I have here. These are the terms and conditions here. And then it's slowly working your way through various different methods. Avalanche and Snowball method, and it can be quite fun actually, as you watch that journey of your debt reducing and know that you have done that.

Iona Bain: Once you're on that journey, the progress that you make then becomes very self- motivating.

Krystle McGilvrey: 100%.

Iona Bain: But you have to start that journey in the first place.

Krystle McGilvrey: You have to start. And even starting with five pounds, because what we're doing there is we're building this new habit, and that's the key. You are teaching yourself and learning and building up the confidence that I can commit to paying money to clear a debt that I have. That's you being responsible. And once you start that journey, it starts to snowball and you feel really good.

Iona Bain: That's so encouraging and heartening, but there may be people who are listening to this conversation who haven't got a diagnosis, who think I relate to a lot of this stuff. What advice would you give to anyone who may not officially have that neurodivergence but relate to a lot of what we've been talking about?

Krystle McGilvrey: I encourage people to set up maybe an accountability partner or someone they can confide in and have those conversations because it's definitely going to be a journey for you to figure out what works for you.

Iona Bain: And does that have to be somebody who is a step removed from your life, like a coach? Or can it just be someone who's a friend or a family member who looks out for you?

Krystle McGilvrey: Totally. My first thought was it could be a friend, it could be a sister, it could be anyone, but someone that you feel safe to explore that with. Diagnosis is quite expensive and for many people really not accessible, but there's no harm in you exploring. What solutions exist in that space to help benefit you and help you do better.

Iona Bain: And how can partners, friends, even employers, be more supportive of those who have neurodivergence when it comes to money?

Krystle McGilvrey: First of all, it's knowing that neurodivergence is a spectrum and everybody is different. I think people assume that someone who is autistic looks a certain way. I mean, I think the narrative of it being a white male is still quite prevalent, right? Dyslexia, ADHD, looks different for everybody. And it's for us all to accept that and trust the individual and their challenges.

And then also lead with financial empathy and kindness for that person and be gentle with their challenges and support them. And then if you have the time, offer to help. That might be helping them find solutions to manage their money better or helping them find an app that would work well with them. So being a helpful hand.

Iona Bain: And Krystle, do you have any advice about how you can keep an eye on the long term? Because that can also be an issue if you're neurodivergent.

Krystle McGilvrey: There's something called time blindness. This is where you struggle to think about the future paired with that lovely present bias. So we want to do things right now, but that means two things. One, if we're spending too much right now, we're not able to save and put that money today into the right place, whether it's saving or investing, which is for us to build our future wealth.

Iona Bain: And also, I imagine that people who might struggle with things like ADHD would find the process of getting to understand investing in pensions and these big money subjects, quite daunting. So what would your advice be for anyone who would really love to get to grips with these things but thinks, I think that's a little bit beyond me?

Krystle McGilvrey: Whether it's talking to somebody that you trust and knows a bit more than you, seeking professional help. But I do understand that especially if we're talking about a financial advisor who looks really suited and booted and serious when it comes to money, that's a bit scary. Maybe encourage online spaces where you can learn, but also if you do download a investing app and follow the steps, it's really quite straightforward.

They don't give you the unnecessary technical jargon. The UX design, the interface is really friendly and you just press a couple of buttons and before you know it, you're an investor.

Iona Bain: Don't talk yourself out of it, in other words. Don't think that's not for me, just do it.

Krystle McGilvrey: It's for everyone.

Iona Bain: So Krystle, if someone's feeling overwhelmed and they recognize some of the traits that we've been discussing in themselves, what are your top three tips for them?

Krystle McGilvrey: I think the first would be know that with so many other areas of life, it's a journey. And the fact that you are aware of it is the first step. And then it's a matter of taking your time to gather the information that you need and working through the process of making the changes. Number two, when we think about the task of doing money and sitting down, whether it's with a spreadsheet or a bit of paper, I'd encourage you to maybe anchor that to something that you already enjoy. So if you're going to update your budget, find something you can do or be in a space or an environment that you really enjoy so that it feels good.

Iona Bain: I would blast out some music.

Krystle McGilvrey: There you go.

Iona Bain: That's what I would do.

Krystle McGilvrey: Exactly. Or maybe go to a cafe and have a little posh coffee.

Iona Bain: Oh, yeah, I'm in.

Krystle McGilvrey: Third tip. Third tip would be chunking it down. So when we think about our finances, there are so many things we need to do, right? Whether it's creating a budget, setting up our automations, thinking about investing, maybe create a lovely long list and be like, okay, these are the things I have to do. Choose one and do that one. And then when you come back, maybe the next week or a couple days later, do one other and just take your time and before you've gone through the list.

Iona Bain: Those are fantastic tips, Krystle, and I'm sure people listening will really, really appreciate them. Thank you so much.

Krystle McGilvrey: Thank you.

Iona Bain: Next time the mortgage mom, Sarah Tucker, will be here to talk us through the home buying process and what you need to know. This podcast is brought to you by L&G. You can keep up with the show on YouTube, TikTok and Instagram at Legal & General. I would love it if you could follow the podcast, leave us a review and help others get a little bit richer too. Thanks for listening. Until next time, see you soon.