Moving from full time work to retirement

[Music for 4 seconds]

 

Shirley: Hello, I'm Shirley Ballas and welcome to Rewirement, the Retirement Podcast, from Legal and General. This is the series that explores how to reset, reinvent and rewire for the retirement you want. Each episode, I'm joined by straight talking, honest retirees and would-be retirees with different experiences, hopes and expectations for retirement.

And my expert panel will be here to help too, with ideas to help you feel confident, comfortable and financially in control, as you approach your own colourful retirement.

Today, we're tackling the topic of making the big switch. How do you go from a lifetime of work to your ideal retirement without a bump?

Sue: I think men sometimes find it harder than women.

Shirley: It's about more than money, as we'll find out.

Emma: If someone asked me to think about what I'd be doing for the next 30 years; I'd have no idea.

Shirley: Thank you for downloading Rewirement, the Retirement Podcast from Legal and General. Here's hoping it brings you one step closer to your dream retirement. Today, I'm going to be chatting with Emma Bryon from Legal General, as well as entrepreneur Tricia Cusden of Look Fabulous Forever. For their tips on the transition from full-time work.

Before that, let's check in with our honest straight-talking team of would be Rewirees. Last time I caught up with John. He's retired and a member of his local amateur dramatics' society in Sussex. Today, we're going to meet a couple of his fellow group members: Sue, who's retired, and David who's still working and contemplating how and when to make the move to retire. Here's what happened when we got together.

First, Sue and David told me a little bit about where they are, right now.

Sue: Well, my situation is that I retired almost ten years ago. So, I'm not working any longer.

Shirley: Are you enjoying the process of not working?

Sue: I am enjoying it. I am enjoying the process of not working very much indeed.

Shirley: What kind of things do you get up to, then?

Sue: I have an allotment. I have a garden, so I spend a lot of time on them. I've joined the U3A. I'm in four groups with them. One of them I'm learning Latin. I'm in the Natural History Group. I'm in a walking group which is sort of long walks. I'm in a Natural History Walking Group as well. I do yoga. I'm the police neighbourhood watch co-ordinator for part of my road.

Shirley: Oh, my goodness [laughs]. So, it's safe to say you don't miss work then?

Sue: No, no. I feel I'm very busy and I have difficulty fitting things in very often [laughs].

Shirley: And you, David?

David: Well, I am actually still working. I still work full-time travelling up and down to London for my sins. And from what Sue's just said, I think – I don't know whether I'm going to look forward to retirement or not. It sounds more hard work than actually working. But, no, I mean, I'm actually looking forward to retirement. It's something I'm now conscious of the fact that it's something that's coming up.

Now, I'm 62 next month and I realise that it is the sort of thing that a lot of my colleagues are retiring. Or what something I would like to maybe do, look at is maybe working part-time. So, just continuing for two or three days a week. But then giving myself the option to find things outside of work to actually deal with. Because I often thought that it was a bit unfair with people who retire that they just suddenly – one day they're working and the next day they stop.

Shirley: Do you have things in mind that you want to do?

David: I do, yeah. Like Sue, I enjoy gardening but I'd like to do a bit of travelling. Not necessarily abroad but maybe around the Country.

Shirley: Lovely.

David: Because there's so many things in the UK that I haven't seen or I've seen through work but that's best out of maybe a hotel window or something like that. So, it would be nice to just maybe spend a few days in places to go and see them and visit and have a look around these places.

Shirley: Remember John from last time?

John: I'm John. I've been retired about three years. I am married with two grownup children.

 Shirley: As a bit of a saver John talked about his dilemma of not being sure about when to enjoy the money he'd set aside and when to continue his careful habits. I asked him about how he approached the leisure side of retirement.

 John: I enjoy being able to do what I want to do, when I want to do it without restrictions on what I do. Not having to travel up to London. Being able to usually go out when I want to, without thinking about meetings. And it's a lot more relaxing than when I was working.

When I was about to retire I found that I was aching an awful lot and eventually it was decided that I'd got Rheumatoid Arthritis, which is very much under control but it does mean that some of the things I thought I was going to be doing are difficult to do.

I think my advice to people would be to think about whether you ought to be retiring when you're younger and, in fact, when you're fitter.

 Shirley: So, John, transitioning from full-time work to retirement, how do you feel that's been?

John: It actually worked out well and not quite so well. So, when I started work, our pension scheme said that I would retire at 60. So that was certainly the plan. So, I was 60 at the end of 2015, but that was when I suddenly started to realise that my health wasn't as good as it might have been.

Because of my Arthritis I worked from home for the last six months or so of my employment, because when things had moved forward, a lot of my work I could do over the Internet. So, that's how I transitioned and I was very fortunate as well that when I actually did retire, the Arthritis was under control. I've needed a couple of hip replacements because of it, but in fact that's been fantastic. Been really good. So, now I can move forward and start to enjoy retirement more than I had been.

It's something you very much have to take into account that when I was working, I was out of house for 12 hours a day. Suddenly, you find that there's the two of you in the house and you're here together all the time.

Shirley: I mean that's a transition just on its own, isn't it?

John: Ever so much, ever so much, because if you're not careful you could very easily get on each other's nerves. So, my wife likes to go out and meet friends for coffee. I go out for lunch with friends of mine and see various people and so making sure that we have an active social life.

But I think we've always decided, Shirley, that although there were a number of things we wanted to do together, it was very important to have our own lives as well. Because otherwise you tend to run out of things to talk about if you're not careful.

Shirley: It sounds like you've really made the transition from full-time work into retirement amazingly well and also with your personal life and being with your wife at home full-time. It sounds like you actually have done extremely well.

 John: Well, the other thing, of course, Shirley, that's rather nice is that rather than having to get up at 6.15 am in the morning, get down to the train station, get on the train to London Bridge every day, sort of a 45-minute journey. If I want to get up at 8.00 am or 8.30 am now, I can do it. But you have to be careful that you don't spend half the morning in bed.

Shirley: It sounds like getting the balance right in your relationships and your routine is just as important as making sure you have hobbies and plans to enjoy. David, meanwhile, has worked for the Civil Service for 42 years. He's confident about the financial side of his move to retirement, but he knows that's not the situation for most, these days.

David: With the younger generation what they tend to do is you say to them, "Have you thought about a pension? Have you thought about this? Have you thought about that?" And they just go, "Oh, I'll think about that in a few years' time".

Shirley: I asked Sue what advice she'd give people when making their plans for retirement. Sue seems to be a master of hobbies and is enjoying colourful retirement, but is there anything she might have done differently?

Sue: It's very difficult because when I first retired, I retired in the August and I was a bit of a loose end in the winter, as the winter came on. And I was actually, you know, really quite sort of bored and wondering what to do. So, I hadn't really thought out what I was going to do myself, properly. But I would, looking back on it, advise someone to give it some thought as, you know, what they wanted to do and how they were going to set about it.

Shirley: So, think about it before you retire.

Sue: I think you should do, yes. Yes, I mean once that Autumn was over and I got to the – after, to the following year, I started actually doing things so it was fine. But I think some people who haven't got any interests, and I did have a lot of interests it's just I didn't do anything about them. Some people who haven't got many interests, I think they find themselves a bit of at a loose end. I think men sometimes find it harder than women. I don't know whether this is still so, but in the past a lot of men retired and all their life was just work, and they did nothing else. And quite a lot of them just died after they'd been retired for a few years because I think they must have just got so bored and had nothing to do.

David: Thanks, Sue. That's something for me to look forward to then, isn't it?

Sue: [Laughs]

David: Shirley, don't you think it's a bit like you said just now. Different people do different things and some people will, you know, plan out what they're going to be doing. Other people will just go, "Well, I'll let it just wash over me and I'll deal with it as and when it comes". And I think the problem is sometimes it depends on – with your retirement, is it something that you planned or is it something that's unplanned?

For example, my father's 87. He's got a condition and I don't know if he's going to – sort of how many years he's got. But I mean it could be that suddenly I'm going to have to suddenly think about, "OK, well what do I do now?" "Do I go part-time? Do I retire? What do I do?". So, I think sometimes it's how people had the approach that they can have with regard to it. You know, and sometimes they can't plan.

Shirley: So, case-by-case scenario, each person.

David: Absolutely, yes. Yeah, I think everybody has to sort of look at it from their own point of view. So, you –

Shirley: Because I have to say I'm a little bit like you, David. I couldn't even possibly not imagine going to work. And fortunately, in my industry, particularly, that you can go all the way up till you pop your clogs, as they say, because you can teach dance at any age. So, I think where yours is gardening, mine can always be still dancing or teaching or something. I couldn't imagine.

But now having listened to you also, Sue, I will be bearing in mind about hobbies and things and starting to get organised with things like that, because I don't think I'm overly organised with my retirement. Because you don't think it's coming do you within – and you're there.

Sue: No, and it's there and, you know, you're in it. And you've just got to, you know, grab hold of it with both hands and get on.

David: I think if people can gradually go into retirement that helps them to get more –

Sue: Get used to it.

David: – you get used to it. And have these hobbies –

Sue: Yes.

David:  – that are building up around them.

Sue: Yes.

David: So, that when the day comes where they no longer have to work or they retire, it is difficult for people if they haven't got anything else apart from their day-to-day work and they've just got this state pension to come to.

Shirley: That's why, for them, probably planning is the most important.

David: Is more important, absolutely yeah.

Shirley: And pensions perhaps so they have something when they retire, are important. The trouble is that people think about it when it's too late, a little bit maybe.

Sue: Yeah, so when it's actually happened and they're there.

Shirley: Sue, tell me about how you made the decision to move from full-time work to retirement? And what influenced the timings for you and what about your partner? How did he feel?

Sue: About me retiring? No, he was happy for me to retire with him. He'd retired. He's three years old than me. He'd retired two years before I retired. The reason I retired when I did is because the firm I was working for in Haywards Heath, which was a very nice friendly local brokerage, was taken over by a much larger company. The whole work ethos was very different and I sort of hung on for two years till – and put my state pension off for two years, so that I got more when I got that. And just hung on then till I was 62 and then left with a great deal of relief.

Shirley: Did you miss the structure and the routine of going to work every day?

Sue: Yes, I think I did. I mean I was pleased to get out because of the circumstances, but I did miss the routine of it all.

Shirley: Well, I think when you've been in a job for so many years –

Sue: Yeah.

Shirley: – did you find it a little frightening to suddenly –

Sue: Yes, it was.

Shirley: – you're going to retire and how you were going to manage.

Sue: Yes.

Shirley: And what are your finances in that position?

Sue: Yes, yes, and also when you're married and you retire, you wonder how you're both going to get on when you're in the house –

Shirley: That was my next question [laughs]

Sue: Was it, yes. Oh sorry. [laughs]. Yes, I thought, you know, "How will we get on if we're forced into each other's company every minute of the day".

Shirley: Because it's one thing seeing each other for half an hour in the morning and a little bit in the evening.

Sue: Yes, yes.

Shirley: From 5.00 pm. There's another thing 24/7 with your partner.

Sue: Yes, yes. But, no, it worked out very well because my husband was doing a whole lot of things. He's always been very much into music. So, that was fine because he did that and I did my own thing, and it works out very well.

Shirley: [Laughs] I love that.

Sue: [Laughs] –

Shirley: What about you, David?

David: Well, I'm going to be on my own, which is a bit frightening.

Shirley: So, do you like your own company then?

David: I'm pretty much – I do enjoy my own company. I enjoy gardening as I said, but I do belong to other groups. I belong to a local amateur dramatic group. I belong to a choir. So, I'm sure I will find other things to do. I can fortunately drive, so I can get out and about. I just cannot imagine myself sitting indoors all the time, doing nothing. But I'm a sort of pretty active type of person who wants to do things.

But it's interesting what Sue was saying about work. I've had various colleagues have left and without fail, all of them say, "I don't miss the work, but I will miss the company".

Shirley: Yeah.

David: And I will miss the people that I work with. And I think that's an important thing because really, you're with these people for – well, you know, for about seven or eight hours a day. And you get to know them, they get to know you. And then all of a sudden when you retire, you're sort of, as Sue said, you're cast adrift a bit and you're sort of, "What do I do now?" You've got to build up a group of friends, I think, as well.

Shirley: A new set of friends.

[Music for 3 seconds]

Shirley: New friends, new hobbies and a whole new dynamic to the relationship with your partner. No wonder our guests had so much to say about making the leap from work to retirement. We'll be catching up with them next time.

Joining me now are two people with some great insights to share. Emma Bryon is the Managing Director for Legal and General retirement income, which specialises in products to help people provide an income in their retirement. And Tricia Cusden became an entrepreneur and business owner in her Rewirement years. She's the founder of Look Fabulous Forever which provides beauty and cosmetic products especially for mature skin. Hello.

Tricia: Hi.

Shirley: Thank you for joining me. Tricia tell me about your journey to starting a business in your retirement years? Was beauty always a passion of yours?

Tricia: Make-up was always a passion of mine and – but I knew nothing about the beauty industry. And, in fact, was very much an outsider to the beauty industry when I had the idea to start the business. It grew out of what was basically a very challenging year for me.

So, I started the business when I was 65 but the year before that, when I was 64 my daughter had given birth to a baby who was very sick. And I found myself really needed for practically every day during that year for one thing or another.

When, India, the baby, did eventually get discharged from hospital, which was when she was about 10 months old, Susie hired a special needs nanny, because the baby had special needs. And I kind of didn't have a life to resume almost. I felt very low and very in need of a new challenge, let's put it that way. I was making sort of dates every day with the television. I was thinking, "Oh I must get back because Countdown's about to start", which was not a very good use of my time.

And I kept thinking, "You know, I might live for another 30 years. I'm 65 but I could well live into my 90s. What on earth am I going to do with the rest of my life?" So, I actually thought, "What do I love? What do I enjoy? What do I miss? What would I love to have in my life right now?" I was also quite exercised about the fact that the beauty industry could only talk to me through the language of anti-aging, which made me very cross.

So, I put all those things together and I thought, "Well, I love business. I love make-up. I'd love to do something different within the make-up arena for older women", and so I just decided to do it and set up the business.

Shirley: Wow that's simply amazing. How is running a business at this age different to the career you had when you were younger?

Tricia: I think the thing about running a business when you're a lot older and you've got a huge amount of experience is anything that crops up, you've usually met before along the way. That helps enormously. I mean there is no question that by the time you reach 65 you're going to be extremely experienced in a huge number of ways.

And what I feel quite strongly about Look Fabulous Forever is that it brings together everything that I have done into one very neat package. So, for instance, we make videos for YouTube and they have been part of the sort of bedrock of the success of our business, especially initially. So, making a video for YouTube would have been daunting for some people but because I used video a lot in my life, as a management trainer, I was perfectly comfortable being on video. And also, things to do with actually running a business, you know, keeping an eye on cashflow and understanding how everything sort of meshed and worked together, was something that I'd experienced before.

And I think the big difference was to do with risk. I've always been quite entrepreneurial, but when you're 65 you cannot risk the roof over your head. At the age of 65 when we needed extra money to help the business to grow, I knew that the solution to that was to go outside and ask other people for money, which is what we did. And fortunately, the business was very attractive so we raised money very easily. But it's very important, I think, if you're older and you're going to start a business venture, that you do so within certain limits.

Shirley: Boy, what a story. Our Rewirees talked about the transition in their relationships. How have yours changed in retirement?

Tricia: I think what's interesting, I know work with my two daughters. So, what happened was I started the business and six months later my older daughter, Anna, rang me up. She was working as a PR consultant and she rang me up. She said, "Mum, this business is really interesting and it's obviously doing brilliantly. Can I come and join you? Because there's a great story to tell here". So, I just said, "Well, there's no job and there's no money but you can come if you like [laughs]". And so, I didn't exactly incentivise her to join me, but she did join me.

And it was lovely because she came with a fresh pair of eyes. We then had to find a way to make that work for us, because I'm still her mum and we still have to relate as mother and daughter. But at the same time, we were running quite a serious business together. And then my other daughter, the mother of India, the sick baby, she said, "You and Anna seem to be having a lot of fun. Can I come and join now?"

We all have a good relationship with each other. We're good at talking out problems and stuff like that and it's just been the most amazing fun. So, instead of having less contact with them, I actually now have more contact with them. And the five grandchildren that I've got, they live quite near to me so, I get to see them as well. And we've got an absolute iron rule that when I'm there, we don't talk about the business. So, when I'm in their homes, the business is off limits.

Shirley: I couldn't think of anything more special, actually, to be honest. Listening to your story, it's really – for me, it's quite captivating. So, a congratulations on all you've done for sure.

Hello, Emma.

Emma:  Hi.

Shirley: Hi darling, what are the steps people should be considering before they retire?

 Emma: Well, I think as Tricia mentioned, it can be quite a daunting prospect to look at the next 30 years of your life, and work out what you're going to do and what money you're going to use and so on.

So, I think people should really just try to break it down a little bit and start with thinking about how they see themselves spending their life in the next five or so years. So, will you be working? You know, maybe you want to carry on part-time working. Maybe you want to volunteer. You know, what hobbies will you take up and so on.

So, I think it's really important to just try and picture what your lifestyle will be like and have a bit of fun with it. You know, try to really imagine yourself enjoying your time not working and how you'll spend that.

So, I would say that the first step for people to really think about rather than diving in straight to think about the finances which can be quite scary for people. So, I'd say start with the fun bit first.

Shirley: So, making a decision what you want to do in the next five years. Keep it on a short-term plan?

Emma: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think if someone asked me to think about what I'd be doing for the next 30 years, I'd have no idea. I'd hardly have an idea over – beyond the next year, I'd say. So, really think about the shorter term and how you'll live. Because, of course, people's lives over retirement will change significantly, you know.

Shirley: Would you agree that a happy retirement is about a lot more than just getting the numbers right?

Emma: Yeah, definitely. I mean, as I said, you know thinking what you're doing with your life. You know, how you're going to spend your time, that's really the most important thing, you know, about retirement. Finances, of course, are a critical enabler for how much fun you're going to be able to have in your retirement, so you do need to also take stock of your finances. Think about all of the assets that you have. What assets do you have that are going to provide you with some form of income? You know, what other assets have you got that you might want to tap into in later retirement. So, maybe your home and so on. You know, what benefits will you receive. What state pension will you get? You need to really sit down and take stock of all of those financial assets.

Shirley: Tricia, did you have it all figured out when you retired?

Tricia: Absolutely, not. In fact, I think if India hadn't been born when she was, in the way that she was, I suspect that I would just have slid into retirement in a way. I'd have just done slightly less and less of the kind of work that I was doing.

And I don't think I would have had that moment that I did have, of almost existential crisis, which I definitely did experience because we're not often confronted with that. Although, I suppose for some people, ending their working life, can create a kind of crisis because you have to let go of all that structure and time filling that work gives you. You know, in a good way.

The kind of advice that I would give to somebody who is retiring or about to be retired is to give yourself lots and lots of space to explore all kinds of different possibilities. And sometimes asking those really challenging and difficult questions is a way to start to get clear about just what we want to do, achieve. Definitely giving yourself space, time and not beating yourself up about not coming up with amazing ideas immediately. I think things will evolve.

I'm in touch with a huge, huge group of older women. And I am staggered every day at just how brilliant they are and how brilliantly they are creating interesting lives for themselves in this – what I think of as the last great adventure.

Shirley: What other creative ways have you heard of people making an extra-income in their retirement. So, all these amazing women that you spoke to, in their late 60s or what have you, what have you heard from them?

Tricia: Well, one of the most inspiring is somebody who has always been very creative but she'd never had time to sort of realise her true creativity. And she did a silversmithing course, which she absolutely loved and started to make amazing jewellery. You know, really beautiful jewellery and she now makes and sells jewellery. And I just think that's lovely.

Shirley: A lot of people miss the social life when they finish work, which is a big part of their identity. Do either of you have advice on how you can make that transition a bit gentler?

Tricia: I tell you what one of the things that strikes me about a lot of the women that I talk to, is that they are very sociable beings and they join a lot of clubs. And so they join choirs, and they join book clubs and they go to Zumba and they've got the most amazing social lives.

Emma: Yeah, I mean I guess, as Tricia says, it's about finding the things that you enjoy, that are going to keep you occupied and make you feel that sense of purpose. But I think it's also really important not to see retirement as this sort of big event, when your life overnight changes. It's really a sort of transition that will take, you know, for many people a number of years if they choose to slow down work and kind of gradually retire.

So, I think in the run up to retirement if people are slightly daunted by what they're going to be spending their time doing it's worthwhile, you know, looking at picking up new hobbies, volunteering. Doing things that maybe you haven't had time to do before and starting to do those as you work your way up to retirement.

You know, I think volunteering is proven to be great for improving people's health and wellbeing, so it's a fantastic thing for a lot of people to do in retirement, and many do. Because they have that time to give back to society.

Shirley: Sue, made an observation that she thought men can find it harder to make the transition to retirement. Do you think there are differences between the sexes in the way they approach this time?

Tricia: I do think there's a difference between the sexes. I think men find it a lot more difficult and challenging to be domestically based, let's put it that way. They really do miss in a way that I don't think I particularly missed just getting out there and, you know, bestriding the world as a colossus kind of thing.

I also think that men attach a huge amount to their status within a job, in a way that women tend not to. But then, you know, I've got friends who are married to men who are incredibly happy to be retired. And really have had enough of the corporate life and are more than ready for the next chapter. So, I think it's very individual to a large extent.

 Emma:  Yeah, I guess I'd probably sit more on the side of the men that Tricia decided would be quite daunted at the prospect of being domestic all the time, but I won't admit to being attached to my job title though. I think it's going to be different for different people. Some people adapt more easily, some people respond to change better and that's male or female. So, I'm not sure it's specifically men that would find it harder to transition into retirement.

Shirley: Has Coronavirus changed any of this?

Emma:  I guess for those at the point of retirement today, it must feel like a sort of very strange situation to be trying to make long-lasting decisions. You know, there's a huge amount of economic uncertainty across the World, so really it's very hard for people to be thinking about making long-term decisions. But I think it's still very very important that people try to get to grips with what they've got in terms of their retirement savings. Make sure they're aware of how their funds have performed and the extent to which any fall within the stock markets hit their pension funds.

I mean, it maybe that some people want to defer retiring, if they have had losses on their pension funds. That they want to give them time to recover. But for some people, you know, it won't be possible. They will want to still continue and proceed with retirement.

So, I think people should look, you know, online. Use the tools that are available such as Pension Wise, which is the Government's guidance service. And then people should really think about ensuring they can meet their basic expenses and the necessities. You know, that might come from their state pension. It might come from a defined benefit pension or they could use defined contribution pensions to buy fixed income sources such as annuities.

You know, annuities provide people with a guaranteed income for life. Interest rates are pretty low at the moment so that does have a knock-on impact on the annuity rates which can make people hesitant. So, an alternative to a lifetime annuity is also a fixed term annuity, where instead of taking the annuity over your – for the rest of your life, you take it for a fixed period of time. So, you could choose to just lock that in for, you know, three years, five years so that you can reassess things later on.

The main message really to people you're not to panic at the moment in the current situation. You know, retirement's a marathon not a sprint so any decisions you know you make now you can always look to change those in the future.

Shirley: What are the other things you think people should be considering?

Emma:  So, we talked about earlier obviously thinking about your sort of aspirations and needs and goals for retirement. But I think then really, we do need to turn to the finances. And the best place to start is to sort of build yourself a financial retirement plan. Which I know might sound scary to some people but again I think breaking these things down into chunks is a good way to manage what might seem like a daunting task.

So, the first thing to start with is your basic needs. You know, how much do you spend on food each week? What are your gas, electric bills and so on? Rent if you have it or any other household costs. You know, you really want to make sure that you're guaranteed to be able to cover those for the rest of your life.

For some people the state pension might be sufficient to cover those basic needs. For others, you know, what they consider to be essential spend might be greater than that and therefore they'd want to look at other fixed income sources. A defined benefit pension, rental properties which can provide you with that income source or you may want to look to convert some of your defined contribution pensions into an annuity or a fixed term annuity.

So, an annuity is a product whereby the insurer will promise to pay you a fixed amount of money, which you can have increasing with inflation or not, for the rest of your life. So, it provides you with that real assurance that you'd always, always be able to meet that essential spend.

I think then again going back to thinking and things in chunks, think about what you're going to do for the next, you know, three to five years. How many holidays are you going to have? What's the sort of aspirational items that you're going to need to spend money on? And I think there you're going to want a bit more flexibility. You may want to have some of your money in an income drawn down product where you can choose how much you take each time. But do remember with those products that once the money's gone, the money's gone. So, you will need to sort of make sure you're putting some aside for later years as well.

Shirley: Amazing insight. Thank you, Emma, and thank you, Tricia, for sharing your inspiring story with me. I love that you're using your new start to make everyone else's so much more fabulous.

You can find out more about retirement planning at Legalandgeneral.com/retirement. Next time we'll be talking about approaching retirement as a single person, and possibly having a smaller pension pot than you would as a couple. How is it different and what does it mean for the plans and provisions you make before you get there?

Interviewee: I think it might have been nice to have the option of thinking about reducing hours and I haven't got that option and I've still got a daughter at university. So, my salary is the salary.

Shirley: If you press the subscribe button on your podcast listening platform, you'll get it on your device as soon as it's available. I'll be back with our Rewirees and Legal and General's Chris Knight will be sharing his advice along with behavioural psychologist Jo Hemmings. Thanks for listening. I'm Shirley Ballas and I'll catch you next time.

                [Music for 4 seconds]